Comments on: Get real about PHP4 vs. PHP5! http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/ PHP News and Articles Thu, 04 Dec 2008 00:18:49 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.2 by: » Get real about PHP4 vs. PHP5! http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/#comment-27 Fri, 27 Oct 2006 02:13:29 +0000 http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/#comment-27 [...] Page Summary: I have experiece this with 3 language personnally and probably could find evidence of it for other. It does help to a degree but not enough to make a difference. PHP will have many years to come a first rate development language but it will have to drag itself through the debris of its own flaws and myths. The only salvation is if something radical happens in some aspect of the language that draws the early adopter back to the fold.read more | digg story              [...] […] Page Summary: I have experiece this with 3 language personnally and probably could find evidence of it for other. It does help to a degree but not enough to make a difference. PHP will have many years to come a first rate development language but it will have to drag itself through the debris of its own flaws and myths. The only salvation is if something radical happens in some aspect of the language that draws the early adopter back to the fold.read more | digg story              […]

]]> by: BitRatchet » Blog Archive » PHP 5 discussion end in Steel Cage Rant http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/#comment-26 Sun, 03 Sep 2006 06:25:00 +0000 http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/#comment-26 [...] I was googling around and found some people’s thots on migrating from PHP 4 to PHP 5. One point I didn’t see in the original post here was that PHP 4 and MySQL 5 are not present in long-term-supported distributions of Linux like RHEL4. Sometimes the Linux distro is pretty important in terms of software version choice. [...] […] I was googling around and found some people’s thots on migrating from PHP 4 to PHP 5. One point I didn’t see in the original post here was that PHP 4 and MySQL 5 are not present in long-term-supported distributions of Linux like RHEL4. Sometimes the Linux distro is pretty important in terms of software version choice. […]

]]> by: gcornelisse http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/#comment-21 Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:37:51 +0000 http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/#comment-21 PHP4 and PHP5 comparison/migration information: <a href="http://www.zend.com/php5/articles/engine2-php5-changes.php?print=1" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Changes in PHP 5/Zend Engine II</a> <a href="http://www.php.net/manual/en/language.oop5.php" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Classes and Objects (PHP 5)</a> <a href="http://www.php.net/manual/en/language.oop.php" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Classes and Objects (PHP 4)</a> <a href="http://www.php.net/manual/en/migration5.php" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Migrating from PHP 4 to PHP 5</a> <a href="http://www.devshed.com/c/a/PHP/Whats-New-in-PHP-5/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">What's New in PHP 5</a> PHP4 and PHP5 comparison/migration information:

Changes in PHP 5/Zend Engine II

Classes and Objects (PHP 5)

Classes and Objects (PHP 4)

Migrating from PHP 4 to PHP 5

What’s New in PHP 5

]]> by: ruzz http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/#comment-18 Sat, 10 Jun 2006 07:09:19 +0000 http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/#comment-18 i think it might be helpful to point out ASP.NET is not a language, it is a development framework/platform. A very solid one, but still it's like comparing raw php development to rails it's not accurate, nor fair. Like Rails, which sits on top of the "language" ruby, asp sits on top of the pie known as .NET. The discussion here about upgrading to PHP 5 from 4 would be more suited if looked at through the lens of upgrading from .net 1.1 to .net 2.0, but even that isn't accurate, it just underlines the point. i think it might be helpful to point out ASP.NET is not a language, it is a development framework/platform. A very solid one, but still it’s like comparing raw php development to rails it’s not accurate, nor fair.

Like Rails, which sits on top of the “language” ruby, asp sits on top of the pie known as .NET. The discussion here about upgrading to PHP 5 from 4 would be more suited if looked at through the lens of upgrading from .net 1.1 to .net 2.0, but even that isn’t accurate, it just underlines the point.

]]> by: dasil003 http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/#comment-15 Sat, 10 Jun 2006 01:33:26 +0000 http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/#comment-15 I agree that PHP developers need to get on the PHP 5 bandwagon. PHP 5 has a lot of compelling features, but it's hard to make the switch if you're depending on open source apps that don't support it yet. However the last line of your article is particularly telling for me. I've been in the PHP game professionally for 6 years. I've probably written more PHP code than any other language. Over that time I've become comfortable in PHP, but also increasingly annoyed with its little foibles. Little things like magic_quotes_gpc and register_globals are easy to work around, but over time make me ask the question: Why should I have to do deal with this? I'm still looking up the order of haystack needle after 6 years. Other PHP4 issues like wonky references, extremely simplistic OOP support, lack of sensible error handling, no namespaces, and other small annoyances have seemed like more and more of a hindrance as my understanding of web applications has increased. Perhaps an even bigger problem is the proliferation of shitty PHP code out there. All languages have bad code, but PHP seems to have some of the worst outside of the Visual Basic / Consumer IDE realm. OSCommerce is a great example. The first response suggested trying to help them, but that's a fool's errand. Without the rest of the developers getting behind the effort, there is no way to make a dent in the morass of code by submitting patches. That's why ZenCart forked, but believe me that codebase is not so great either. Part of the problem is that PHP is so easy to get into, you have new programmers taking it up all the time, copying bad practices from hotscripts. PHP 5 and 6 are making huge improvements to the language, but now that we're at the top of the PHP adoption bell-curve these improvements are going to take years and years to trickle down to all the libraries and scripts. As far as I'm concerned its simply too little too late to compete with languages that had strong design philosophies from their inception. PHP is still second-to-none for hosting and easy deployment, and I expect it to stay that way for years if not decades. I will continue to use PHP for small projects. I'm looking forward to PHP 6 and the incremental improvements it makes. However for larger projects I don't think PHP can ever match the flexibility and power of frameworks like Ruby on Rails, Django, or Seaside. It's the expressiveness of languages like Ruby, Python and Smalltalk that make those frameworks work so well while PHP frameworks tend to be unwieldy and get in your way. I agree that PHP developers need to get on the PHP 5 bandwagon. PHP 5 has a lot of compelling features, but it’s hard to make the switch if you’re depending on open source apps that don’t support it yet. However the last line of your article is particularly telling for me.

I’ve been in the PHP game professionally for 6 years. I’ve probably written more PHP code than any other language. Over that time I’ve become comfortable in PHP, but also increasingly annoyed with its little foibles. Little things like magic_quotes_gpc and register_globals are easy to work around, but over time make me ask the question: Why should I have to do deal with this? I’m still looking up the order of haystack needle after 6 years. Other PHP4 issues like wonky references, extremely simplistic OOP support, lack of sensible error handling, no namespaces, and other small annoyances have seemed like more and more of a hindrance as my understanding of web applications has increased.

Perhaps an even bigger problem is the proliferation of shitty PHP code out there. All languages have bad code, but PHP seems to have some of the worst outside of the Visual Basic / Consumer IDE realm. OSCommerce is a great example. The first response suggested trying to help them, but that’s a fool’s errand. Without the rest of the developers getting behind the effort, there is no way to make a dent in the morass of code by submitting patches. That’s why ZenCart forked, but believe me that codebase is not so great either. Part of the problem is that PHP is so easy to get into, you have new programmers taking it up all the time, copying bad practices from hotscripts.

PHP 5 and 6 are making huge improvements to the language, but now that we’re at the top of the PHP adoption bell-curve these improvements are going to take years and years to trickle down to all the libraries and scripts. As far as I’m concerned its simply too little too late to compete with languages that had strong design philosophies from their inception. PHP is still second-to-none for hosting and easy deployment, and I expect it to stay that way for years if not decades. I will continue to use PHP for small projects. I’m looking forward to PHP 6 and the incremental improvements it makes. However for larger projects I don’t think PHP can ever match the flexibility and power of frameworks like Ruby on Rails, Django, or Seaside. It’s the expressiveness of languages like Ruby, Python and Smalltalk that make those frameworks work so well while PHP frameworks tend to be unwieldy and get in your way.

]]> by: mgkimsal http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/#comment-14 Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:13:59 +0000 http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/#comment-14 yes gcornelisse, the net makes things a small world. I was googling for you today and came across this site. :) yes gcornelisse, the net makes things a small world. I was googling for you today and came across this site. :)

]]> by: karl http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/#comment-13 Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:50:59 +0000 http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/#comment-13 As an ASP.NET guy, I've <a href="http://codebetter.com/blogs/karlseguin/archive/2006/05/12/144584.aspx" rel="nofollow">advocated that ASP.NET isn't always the right tool for the right job</a>. Specifically, ASP.NET is wonderfully aimed at enterprise development as well as various medium to large scale projects. PHP, as a toolset, is better positioned to address a different problem space. While I too am generally apathetic towards those unwilling to learn and evolve, there a reality out there that isn’t as straightforward. PHP5 isn’t in the same universe as ASP.NET when it comes to enterprise development. I don’t know _anything_ about PHP6, but I’m positive that nothing short of a total redesign has a chance of making it competitive (FOR THAT PARTICULAR TYPE OF DEVELOPMENT). It’s possible that PHP6 is a complete redesign, like ASP.NET was to ASP and VB.NET to VB6, but it’s important to understand downside of that. If you aren’t building the type of sites/applications that ASP.NET/.NET are well suited for, you are far better off using PHP or other similar tools. Otherwise you’ll end up with horrible code that’s as unmaintainable, buggy and slow. The point I’m trying to make is to be careful what you ask for. PHP is positioned to capture a very healthy “market share”. It does what it does very well. The more you ask of it to do something else, the more you’ll abandon your faithful core group. Microsoft made that choice with ASP.NET and because of it, the ASP.NET team had to spend most of the 2.0 lifecycle trying to bridge the huge classic ASP gap they created. The VB team is in the same boat. It’s actually surprisingly ballsy and uncharacteristic of Microsoft (long history of backwards compatibility). I will admit that it’s certainly possible for both PHP and ASP.NET to find a happy home across multiple types of development. PHP5 does do a good job of starting to introduce some important enterprise level methodologies while making it possible for anyone to completely ignore those to “setup a gallery”. As I’ve already said, ASP.NET 2.0 has done a lot to soften the learning curve. But it’s a hard balancing act that requires a well thought out roadmap and amazing execution. I have no doubt that PHP will make it happen, but I’m sorry to say, it’ll take some time – that’s something I’ve only recently come to terms with in my own development world. As an ASP.NET guy, I’ve advocated that ASP.NET isn’t always the right tool for the right job. Specifically, ASP.NET is wonderfully aimed at enterprise development as well as various medium to large scale projects. PHP, as a toolset, is better positioned to address a different problem space. While I too am generally apathetic towards those unwilling to learn and evolve, there a reality out there that isn’t as straightforward. PHP5 isn’t in the same universe as ASP.NET when it comes to enterprise development. I don’t know _anything_ about PHP6, but I’m positive that nothing short of a total redesign has a chance of making it competitive (FOR THAT PARTICULAR TYPE OF DEVELOPMENT). It’s possible that PHP6 is a complete redesign, like ASP.NET was to ASP and VB.NET to VB6, but it’s important to understand downside of that.
If you aren’t building the type of sites/applications that ASP.NET/.NET are well suited for, you are far better off using PHP or other similar tools. Otherwise you’ll end up with horrible code that’s as unmaintainable, buggy and slow.
The point I’m trying to make is to be careful what you ask for. PHP is positioned to capture a very healthy “market share”. It does what it does very well. The more you ask of it to do something else, the more you’ll abandon your faithful core group. Microsoft made that choice with ASP.NET and because of it, the ASP.NET team had to spend most of the 2.0 lifecycle trying to bridge the huge classic ASP gap they created. The VB team is in the same boat. It’s actually surprisingly ballsy and uncharacteristic of Microsoft (long history of backwards compatibility).
I will admit that it’s certainly possible for both PHP and ASP.NET to find a happy home across multiple types of development. PHP5 does do a good job of starting to introduce some important enterprise level methodologies while making it possible for anyone to completely ignore those to “setup a gallery”. As I’ve already said, ASP.NET 2.0 has done a lot to soften the learning curve. But it’s a hard balancing act that requires a well thought out roadmap and amazing execution. I have no doubt that PHP will make it happen, but I’m sorry to say, it’ll take some time – that’s something I’ve only recently come to terms with in my own development world.

]]> by: mgkimsal http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/#comment-11 Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:33:20 +0000 http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/#comment-11 Another issue to consider holding people back is shared hosting and control panels. I know Plesk (at least up to 7.5.4) only delivers PHP 4.3.x and MySQL 3.23. Yes there are some 'hacks' to get around this, but things in the shared hosting space are stuck, and probably stuck for mostly financial reasons. However, there weren't many backwards compatiblity issues from 3-&#62;4 *and* there was much less invested in PHP code at that point. The shared hosting migration from 2-&#62;3 and 3-&#62;4 was relatively painless and quite quick. What's the holdup this time? Compatibility concerns? Not being able to run both at the same time without some kludgy proxy hacks (that's a big one for many people for sure)? The PHP community has grown much larger and more professional (and funded, see Zend, etc.) It's certainly not because some developers on a few projects say 'php5 sucks' that the upgrade/adoption isn't happening faster - they were saying 'php' sucks for years and the major version numbers from 2-3-4 all were adopted *much* faster. Another issue to consider holding people back is shared hosting and control panels. I know Plesk (at least up to 7.5.4) only delivers PHP 4.3.x and MySQL 3.23. Yes there are some ‘hacks’ to get around this, but things in the shared hosting space are stuck, and probably stuck for mostly financial reasons. However, there weren’t many backwards compatiblity issues from 3->4 *and* there was much less invested in PHP code at that point. The shared hosting migration from 2->3 and 3->4 was relatively painless and quite quick. What’s the holdup this time? Compatibility concerns? Not being able to run both at the same time without some kludgy proxy hacks (that’s a big one for many people for sure)?

The PHP community has grown much larger and more professional (and funded, see Zend, etc.) It’s certainly not because some developers on a few projects say ‘php5 sucks’ that the upgrade/adoption isn’t happening faster - they were saying ‘php’ sucks for years and the major version numbers from 2-3-4 all were adopted *much* faster.

]]> by: gcornelisse http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/#comment-10 Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:29:23 +0000 http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/#comment-10 I just started hearing about Zen Cart. I've also been looking at a couple others and ran across a nice list with reviews. Not sure all are PHP5, but I know a couple are because I've installed the trial. I have the trial of CS-Cart running and I really like what I see so far. <a href="http://www.hotscripts.com/PHP/Scripts_and_Programs/E-Commerce/Shopping_Carts/index.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Hotscripts - Shopping Carts</a> ....but, I don't want to get too far off topic I just started hearing about Zen Cart. I’ve also been looking at a couple others and ran across a nice list with reviews. Not sure all are PHP5, but I know a couple are because I’ve installed the trial. I have the trial of CS-Cart running and I really like what I see so far.

Hotscripts - Shopping Carts

….but, I don’t want to get too far off topic

]]> by: Slapo http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/#comment-9 Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:20:17 +0000 http://www.thephpgrind.net/2006/06/08/get-real-about-php4-vs-php5/#comment-9 Try using Zen Cart instead of osCommerce, it's newer and runs fine, although it is a bit slow. Try using Zen Cart instead of osCommerce, it’s newer and runs fine, although it is a bit slow.

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